Amen! As that evil group, the Georgia Parent Teacher Student Association (GPTSA), says, "We support charter schools, but we oppose the state charter school amendment." (I assume it is considered evil from the point of view of this author since Teacher is part of the name, and membership, of the group.)

Rae, all of this is about money. Your legislators, ALEC, and the corporations running these EMO's are using you and other parents to fulfill their agenda.

I'm still uncertain about some of the charter schools as to how they provide anything different than what is offered at district schools, and why they are needed in affluent areas of the top performing districts? I wonder why EMO's are targeting these areas?

Any the money wouldn't be an issue if Charters were managed by not-for-profit companies. Seems to me that this is a no-brainer. Using not-for-profit EMO would make most of the opposition a moot point. They would attract better teachers with higher pay and invest more into the school instead of scraping the bottom for profits.

Until the charter movement is about innovation and uses not-for-profit companies, you will not convince me that this is not about taking millions of dollars away from our children and giving it to a wealthy CEO that could not care less about those kids.

Are you talking about in Georgia? Because I'm not seeing anything about it on here...

Because she seems to refuse to acknowledge that teachers' unions don't exist in GA.

Since you didn't look past the first page: http://teachersunionexposed.com/state.cfm?state=GA

Ok, Rae. I'm gonna be honest. I don't have time to look through propaganda filled websites for stuff that doesn't exist. Can you please just give me the "facts" that the charter people are spreading about how teacher "unions" (that don't exist either) are being funding by our tax dollars?

You say you don't want links-when you go to the Georgia Federation of Teachers site-it calls itself a "union of professionals". Say what you like, but let's call it what it is.

My problem is that voting people out of office can take two to four years. Just one year with an ineffective teacher can sc**w up my kids education. No matter what, the fact remains that an ineffective charter school that does not meet its goals will close, neighborhood schools that do not improve will continue to not graduate students and they are not held accountable.

Are all teachers at charter schools effective with every child? Because that is what is seems like you are implying. Charter teachers do not even have to have a teaching degree or be certified by the state of Georgia to educate children. This would concern me as a parent of children at a charter school.

As far as children not graduating, maybe we should look at why instead of again blaming teachers. Maybe it is due to poor parenting, or many other personal issues such as pregnancy or having to get a job or failing too many classes. Should we also blame this on those money hungry teachers and their fancy number 2 pencils?

Jodi, no reason to get defensive. I was not attacking parents, merely explaining that it is ignorant to blame teachers or administration for the graduation rate. I believe charter schools are a very important aspect of education, and am glad you have found something that works for you.

My issue is with the fact that most charters are no longer real charters, but instead a manufactured education business. Charters are supposed to offer something different than the traditional schools. From what I've seen, these charter applications have all been the same, most of them word for word. They don't offer anything new or innovative. They are run by for-profit corporations that pay their teachers wages that would not attract the best teachers, and some of these teachers do not even have certification or teaching degrees. I'm sorry that they have been able to use you for pushing forward their money sapping agenda. It's all about money for them. Why else would they cut off enrollment right after FTE count? They shut their doors to more students when it is not to their benefit financially, where as real public schools must take on any student that walks in their doors, regardless if teachers already have a full class, and regardless if FTE count has already occurred.

You just commented above that a teacher sc**wed up your child's education.

Honestly, with 26+ students in a Kindergarten class, or 30+ in a middle or high school class, I don't see how any teacher can be very effective. If you want to blame someone blame those people that control funding not the school administration or teachers.

@Monty, I said one teacher could, not did.

So I could also say that having teachers with no certification COULD also sc**w up a child's education at a charter school? Can you please stick with real facts and not continue spreading misinformation and fear-mongering?

Great job Holly pointing out who is funding the Vote Yes side. This list just shows how the out of state money is pushing for this to happen so that out of state companies can run the charter school....how is that local control? How is that grassroots? Take a look at some of the minutes (if you can find them) from any of the local governing council meetings? Are the parents really having a say in what goes on?

I addressed the parties for and against the amendment that the VoteSmartGeorgia flyer listed. That is the whole subject of the post (their flyer).

You missed A LOT of the corporations that in conjunction with ALEC and Georgia legislators are cramming this nonsense down our throats.

One problem: Supporters (thank you for listing them) trust me with the choice of school for my child. Even if it's the wrong decision; i'm given the option.

Opponents (thank you for listing them as well) don't trust me with the choice of school for my child.

So while both sides sling mud about power & money, I'm going to choose the side that gives me the option and allows my child the access to educational options and not have a "one size fits all" education. The side that benefits the CHILDREN.

Kara...I know that the top children can get bored in the elementary schools based upon how the school system is set up. My children are tops in theire grades and at times were bored. Please note that it is possible to work within the school system to handle the issue...We Did! Also, please note that even if your child is bored, there is zero reason for your child to get into trouble for conduct.

As to "lost" children, my experience is that the elementary school did a great job managing all of the children and the daily changes parents make regarding ASP vs. Bus Rider. If you've ever been in the school office toward the end of day, the phone rings non-stop with changes. Once again, from K-5 I told my kids daily if they were bus or ASP and sent a note. Only on two occasions in 7 years did my children not get handled appropriately. On one, the school kept my child. On the another, my child didn't turn in the change form and rode the bus...then rode the bus back to school.

Because choices will still exist!!! This is not about choice!! This is about losing control locally and creating bigger government. I am glad your kids are doing well but traditional public schools do differentiation all day long....not just the last 30 minutes of the day during study hall.

Choices won't exist for many parents if 1162 doesn't pass, Jessie.

Yet many pub-school fans here would gleefully see successful charters shut down and thriving children sent back to the exact dismal failures their parents bailed from in the first place....all so that More Funding can be shoveled back to the admins and supers heading those failed districts without an ounce of improvement resulting.

I hear all these complaints about the Gold Dome from these union wannabes yet why aren't these Quasi-Union, Pro-Teacher, Pro-Admin groups ever protesting for the Gold Dome to enact the changes they trot out to hide their real agenda of "We want to be paid more!!!"?? Why aren't these alphabet Union-wannabes protesting the capitol right now for more classroom freedom to teach and improve the overall quality of education?

Why not? Because they're not REALLY interested in doing that. They just want more $$$ and less accountability. It's a joke that a majority of GA voters will hopefully see through this November and approve 1162.

Steely...choices will always exist! If you're saying that not all parents can afford private schools, well, you may be correct. But then again, not everyone gets to drive a Lexus or Mercedes...Sometimes a Chevrolet or Hyundai is good enough.

If parents can't afford private schools on their salary, maybe they need a second job, maybe both need to work, maybe there is a scholarship, or just maybe, they can work it out with the school system to make REASONABLE accomodations to improve the education situation for their child.

Again you speak of excessive administration and superintendent salaries, any yet, public school administration is more efficient than charter school administration via management fees. Your logic and argument fail to get off the ground!

And there you have it - Frank thinks that a "Hyundai" education for our children should be enough, even as we're paying enough for at least a "BMW" education. Here's an idea - let the taxpayer have a voucher that is equal to the amount of $$$ the government is paying to educate their child and let that parent decide where to spend it.

Frank - you've got such low standards for education and the children of GA. As taxpayers, we all deserve better than some Obama-owned "General Motors" below-average sort of eduation, esp. when we're paying $7 Billion for it. But then, you're probably a big fan of the government takeover of private industry, same as you're an obvious fan of spending more money while insisting that standards & performance don't rise accordingly.

So hilariously typical of the failed, 60s-hippie liberal mindset: Accept & embrace Below-average performance as long as it involves More Govt and More Spending.

You can embrace mediocrity Frank. Just stop hating the parents who want more for their children than the traditional GA public school is currently providing many of them. Stop hating parents who have Mercedes standards just because you enjoy driving a Yugo.

Steely Dan: "Choices won't exist for many parents if 1162 doesn't pass"

This reminds of the posters with the big "CLOSED" in red bolded font across a picture of CCA that were posted earlier this year.

This is just an attempt to put more fear in these parents' minds that their school will close when there is absolutely no fact to support it. If this is fact, then the school should have never been opened in the first place. I, honestly, do not think it should be closed. I think it serves a great purpose in our community, but it does not need the support of Amendment 1/1162 to remain open. Amendment 1 takes away any say that the local BOE has in the matter and should never pass. However, with its totally biased verbiage, it probably will pass. I mean, who wouldn't want "choice" and "parental control" when you don't have to pay for it?

Philip, they currently do have this ability. That is how CCA was able to open last year. Also, with Gov Deal signing HB 797 the charter schools will be better funded than traditional public schools.

I believe this amendment will allow legislators to not only go over the heads of the local school boards, but also be able to change the rules for funding (from local dollars) without a public vote.

Ding, Ding, Ding...We have a winner. Monty summed it up nicely.

Oops, no winner! That was one of those stand-in NFL referees, Frank. Calling it wrong again.

Oh... now Rae is in support of the UNION backed referees...

Rae...The state currently has the ability to authorize charter schools, so the amendement is NOT NEEDED.

Assuming your numbers are accurate, one must then ask "Why did the local districts approve only 4?" and "Why did the state commission only approve 16?" Could it be that of the 60 charters that applied, that only 20 offered anything remotely different from the curriculum at the traditional schools?

Under the old rules, 33% of the charter schools that sought approval were approved by either the district or the state. Obviously, there were significant reasons for the other 40 schools not being approved.

Get rid of the useless overhead? I couldn't agree more. Which in CCA's case would be the MILLION DOLLAR annual contract with the for-profit management company, Charter Schools USA. That's where our public tax dollars are going - straight into the Florida-based firm's bank account.

CommonSense, not a dime of CCSD public tax $$ went to CCA. Proof that "Common Sense is not so common" ?!

Meanwhile, the state squanders over $7 billion on districts like APS, DeKalb, Clayton, and Bibb County. Result: We're in the nation's educational cellar.

And yet, zero outrage at that from you public school backers. It's all about the money with you guys - education of our children be damned! Not a one of you is at the capitol fighting for better educational standards for our teachers and classrooms. Only for more funding, even though there's no statistic that shows a correlation between increased funding and increased performance.

Steely...Your argument that the state squanders $7 billion is insane. The state's total education budget is $7 billion. So when you state that the state squanders $7 billion, you're saying that the state wastes it's entire school budget -- including the amounts it gives to charter schools.

Let's use common sense on this forum.

rank, anyone reading that knows what I meant - that the state absolutely, without debate, squanders money in places like APS, DeKalb, etc.

And given that the corruption in those districts didn't start yesterday, it's likely that such squandering probably is in the Billions.

I know you're a huge fan of the gov't wasting money on your failed liberal ideas but please get out of the way of parents today who've clearly got higher standards and expectations for their children than you've got for yours.

Dan, why don't you just say what you mean instead of leaving it up to people's interpretation?

You seem to have uncanny way of explaining finances in a way that someone could possibly end up with a $1M debt instead of a surplus.

Are the school districts receiving less money? Yes. Is the state "finding" additional funds for new and existing charter schools? Yes. This is just legal money laundering by the state government. Until the school districts are fully funded, money is being pulled out of their pockets and stuffed into Jonathan Hage's, and other CEO's, you will not convince anyone that the school districts are not getting the short end of the stick.

Your next question, "What will additional funding in the school districts do other than squander money away?" Hmm... maybe we should look at Forsyth?

Amen, Philip!

If my son stays in GA after he gets out of college, I'd like for him to have more educational options for his children than I had for him. Voting YES to 1162 helps that. Voting NO helps keep the same non-competitive system in place that currently has GA ranked near the bottom of the country. Voting NO sends a clear message to GA taxpayers not wealthy enough for private schools: You are TRAPPED in your school system. If it's a failing school, too bad, so sad. Good luck! The myth of "Work within your local districts for improvement!" is exposed by the corruption seen in APS, Dekalb, Clayton, and Bibb Counties. It's not possible to make a dent in such districts and residents would have to wait 3-4 years for the chance to "vote out" corrupt board members. Parents who care about their children's education don't have 3-4 years to wait around nor the ability in this economy to up & move to a better district.

Throwing more funding at the problem fixes nothing. If it did, our doubling of per-child spending the past few decades would've raised our national rankings rather than placing us in the cellar. Yet no public school advocate ever protests at the Gold Dome for changes in educational standards. They only protest for More Funding.

Vote YES to 1162 to give parents a choice and help get GA out of the nation's educational cellar.

Rae..."Jesus would stand up for his children"? Bringing religion into a discussion about public schools isn't the right approach. 99% of parents will stand up for their children. It's just a matter of how the stand up for their children -- working within the system, bucking the system, or quitting the system.

@Frank, my comment was intended as a humorous answer to philip who stated, "Lets improve the system now. Lets not be self serving.........(which is a normal function of humans) and lets try to do something which is best for the greater good. Hard to do, I understand but Christ did it! I rest my case."

Stop failing Reading Comprehension, Frank.

Your fellow NO supporter Philip Litrel is the one who brought Christ into the discussion, not Ms. Harnkess. If your side plays the God card, so can she.

Though in a rare moment, I totally agree with you that religion has no place in this particular debate.

How does More Funding equate to more Family involvement? How does giving Superintendent, Admin, and across-the-board teacher step-raises in an economic recession equate to more Parental involvement?

Oh that's right - this results in More Fund Raising events the parents can attend to fund the real educational needs being ignored/under-funded so that district Superintendents & Admins can live in mansions and have monthly vehicle allowances while teachers get furloughed! Because $7 BILLION isn't enough!

It's time for a fundamental change to this nonsense, which voting YES to 1162 will help bring about.

Steely...your arguments are failing once again. Teachers are getting furloughed due to lack of funds. Teachers get furloughed, but guess what, administrators and superintendents get furloughed as well. There wouldn't be as many furlough days, if any, if the state would provide adequate funding instead of cutting funding each year.

Way to avoid answering the question, Frank!

How does More Funding equate to More Family Involvement, Frank? Stop obfuscating and answer the question!

Most County districts could fire most of their admins and cut their super's salary by 75% and be just fine. No public educator I've ever met has indicated they had a need for District Red tape and numerous district admins & overpaid supers.

But again, you love More Spending....you've just got no idea whatsoever what it will possibly accomplish.

I'll ask again:

-How does More Funding increase Parental Involvement?
-How does More Funding help kids living in poverty-stricken homes?

There'd be no need for furloughs if fatcat admins and supers funded Classrooms First and themselves LAST. $7 Billion is Enough.

Rae...If the students are bringing guns and other weapons to school, it sounds like there are other overriding social and community issues besides the schools. Following that comment, those same social and community issues are contributing to the low graduation rates. And hey, would you rather the gang-bangers be in your school or drop-out?

Based upon this one post, if appears that what you're really looking for is a different school where there is a different socio-economic group of students. I believe that model was called segregation and was ruled illegal 50 years ago. Your post lends support to the anti-charter argument that the amendment is a thinly veiled attempt to re-segregate the schools.

@Frank, Let's not be ridiculous, this is not a race issue as everyone wants to turn it into. I am not any better off economically than the other families in my area. Perhaps I am guilty of caring more about education than the ones whose kids carry guns.
The point is, DeKalb Administration won't make the changes needed to stop the behavior of the bad kids so the rest of the class can learn. We are under failing management.

Sounds like Ms Harkness is looking for a school that has more parental involvement than the babysitting traditional public schools. I believe some charters mandate parental involvement. I'm sure you're against that too.

What are public schools doing to increase parental involvement?

How does More Funding help out a lack of parental involvement?

That is an excellent question. However, allowing parents to 'pay or volunteer' doesn't sound like 'required' parental involvement to me. Parents don't HAVE to volunteer at CCA - let's face it, many have work schedules that will not allow for it. They can simply pay their way through their volunteer hours for the year. So, Steely Dan - how does that option truly help out with parental involvement? It's a lot easier to write a check to the school than to volunteer. Any idea as to how many parents are using that option? We'll probably never know.

Steely...The very nature of public schools is that they are free to attend. However, when a charter school, managed by a for-profit company, can dictate "Pay or Volunteer", it is no longer a free public school. Instead it is a quasi-private school.

Further, I know some parents that I should not be allowed in a school. There are probably some parents who are barred from being in a school.

Lastly, by forcing someone to volunteer (i.e. work) for free, that amounts to forced labor and should be deemed as a wage and hour violation especially since the work is being performed for a for-profit management company. The more volunteer hours they get, the more money they can make!

No idea, common.

But unlike any public school my son attended growing up, it's at least an attempt to get parents involved. The several PTAs I was involved in were primarily focused on Fund Raising activities, rather than anything involving the education of my son. It was a very disappointing experience, to say the least.

Frank, I agree that you should not be allowed in a public school. I want your failed liberal ideas as far away from today's young minds as possible.

Dan, schools ask parents to help all the time. Most parents do not have the liberty to take off of work and volunteer at their children's schools. The one's that do, will usually be there at least weekly. How can you mandate parent involvement through legislation? That would take away our freedoms. So, it can only be asked for at these schools, not required.

How is less funding helping our schools?

For one, our children's class sizes are soaring. More funding will pay for more teachers which will lower class size counts. So the funding would help the students that don't have parental involvement by giving them more attention from their teachers.

Until we can figure out a way to get all parents involved, we need to figure out how to help them best at the school when they have a teacher that is there to help them be successful.

Monty, Cherokee County HS students just made their best SAT scores ever...after several years of 'austerity spending cuts'.

Less funding clearly didn't impact their ability. 'More funding' is seldom the answer, esp. in the case of education. Unless the funding is spent on capital projects (new infrastructure, etc), just giving raises to the Admins accomplishes nothing, as do no-questions-asked step raises to teachers. Such actions destroy incentive - what's the point of getting better if you're getting the same pay raise as the teacher down the hall who's failing to educate? "Everyone is the same" didn't work out in the former USSR and it won't work here.

Steely...Cherokee High School didn't achieve their scores as a result of the austerity cuts. They achieved their scores as a result of their individual hard work, that of their parents and the dedicated work of their teachers and system administrators. Quality teachers and administrators must be paid reasonable compensation else they move on to another system where they are paid what they are worth. As a result of the austerity cuts, the school system has reduced compensation of its most valuable assets - their people - and make other personnel and educational cuts. You can only so far before you cut off your arms and legs!

Dan, thank you for finally recognizing the success of CCSD.

Dan, most students are not just going to start failing after a few years of "austerity" cuts and underfunding of schools. These students that performed so well in Cherokee County have been going though a system that has been setting them up for success for the past 13 years. So maybe we need to look back 13 years ago and see what change occurred? Well, that is when the county was on the brink of losing accreditation and a new Superintendent was brought in - Dr. Frank Petruzielo. Since that time, many people would agree with me that this school district has gone from worst to first in our state during his tenure. So, what did he do? He attracted teachers from all over the country to come to Cherokee County, GA of all places to help our children become better prepared and be successful in college and the business world. See your son, for instance.

Cutting funding won't have an immediate affect because the pieces for our school system to be successful are already in place. But over time, you will see those pieces start to crumble, the best teachers will go somewhere else where they are appreciated and valued and we will no longer see an influx of those teachers from other areas moving in to help rebuild our schools if the funding isn't there.

This is about the only thing you've ignored about how schools should resemble the business world. You want the best? Then "show me the money".

Monty,

Perhaps these 'austerity cuts' resulted in teachers & staff realizing that they need to be doing all they can to educate students, given the dismal economy we're in and potential for job loss? Certainly the 3 decades of doubling per-child spending isn't the reason, else we would've seen improvement (rather than stagnation) years ago. I don't see any correlation between CCSD's half-billion-$$ budget and improved performance based on 1 year of great SAT scores. I credit our teachers more than our funding, which is already substantial.

As you probably already know, my position all along is "Fund the teachers and classrooms first".

And you clearly seem like a parent who is involved with your child's education, so I tip my hat to you and wish you & yours good luck in education and life. Being in the wealthy CCSD means we both have it better than many other parents around the state of GA, which is why I'm voting YES to 1162. For them and my son if he chooses to stay in GA and raise a family here.

Dan,
I'm sorry if I'm misinterpreting what you've said above, but it sounds like you're saying that the teachers were not working as hard prior to "austerity" cuts. I have multiple teachers in my family and know that they pour their heart into what they do and care for those kids as if they were their own. They work well beyond the hours they are at school. Having their job on the line, if anything, will make them less efficient and make them teach MORE to the test than actually teach the children.

Teachers are going to work their butts off regardless of whether or not they work for a public school, charter school, or private school. They are not in it for the money, they are in it to help the kids. However, if you start cutting their paychecks to the point that they cannot provide for their family, they will go somewhere else.

So my question is, why are we not putting more pressure on our government officials to provide the funding they are supposed to be to the school districts? If schools were fully funded, none of this would be an issue. When schools are not receiving the funding they are supposed to be, and millions of dollars are being allocated to pay "management" fees of $1 million dollars or more (this is profit in addition to salaries for those people that don't know the difference), there is a problem. Dan, for someone so obsessed with pointing out excessive spending, I can't believe that you could support using for-profit EMO's in a recession.

Nick, they do not 'require' parental involvement. Parents can choose to pay a fee OR volunteer. Just how many are choosing to make a payment to the school versus actually being involved in their child's education? I guess we'll never know.

Can’t you see how that is discriminatory? All those who have parents who don’t have to work during school hours can come to our school, those parents that work during school hours kids have to move to the back of the bus.. All those that can afford to make a donation instead of volunteering can come to our school, all others have to move to the back of the bus.
You made the choice to live in a bad neighborhood and now you want your own little school for just the good kids?? That is not how public school are supposed to work. TPSs must educate everyone who shows up at the door and can’t boot the kids out because of lame parents because they are public schools. Charter schools that receive taxpayer dollars should not be permitted to boot anyone out...they are public schools!!

Jessie, except that the dismal TPS model is failing to educate 1 of 3 HS kids who "show up at the door".

I don't think charter schools can just boot people out, for the very reason you cite (usage of public $$). I don't think you're correct in that assumption....or very much else, for that matter.

Look, if you TPS lovers are thrilled with a 67% HS graduation rate and cellar-dweller American ed. rankings, fine. I just don't understand why you want to foist your low, mediocre standards of education on others who demand better. The charter school advocates want what's best for their children but don't appear to be trying to stop TPS parents from forcing their kids to get below-average educations. And they're taxpayers just like you. Why do you get to dictate how their $$$ is spent on their kid's education?

nick, all employees are paid a salary or receive hourly compensation regardless of the organization they work for. This is not a profit. A profit is the money that is left over after all expenses (which would include employee pay mentioned above). For-profit EMO's walk away with millions of taxpayer dollars instead of investing back into the school. Not-for-profits will save taxpayers money as well as invest more in the students and attract better teachers with the offer of higher salaries. I hope this helps.

Kara...I've rebuted the comments before and you should stop present the mis-information.

For profit charter schools may have boards comprised of parents and community residents but they are not required to have such. Further, the board members are not elected by the community at-large. In the case of CCA, it was formed by CSUSA and CCA rubber-stamped the contract it was provided by CSUSA. It was not a grass-roots endeavour. It was a corporate top-down plan. The management company oversees all purchasing and administrative control using public tax money, yet bypasses all controls typically in place such as open bidding and self-dealing. The charter management/control model is 180 degrees different that the traditional school model and to state otherwise is a LIE!

CCA was approved as a "special charter school" indicating that its educational program offered something unique. Under the GA Supreme Court decision, the state retains the ability to approval special charter schools...Schools that offer something unique. You cannot argue that the supreme court ruling is the reason that no other charter has been approved. It could be simply that there haven't been any unique charter concepts.

You mention that CCA will close unless the amendment passes regardless of how it has performed...implying it has performed above average. If you review the data, CCA performs no better than CCSD schools.

The amendment doesn't have to pass for the state to have a say.

Kata- not true. The state board will consider four new charter schools for approval next month. CCA is preparing its charter renewal application as we speak, an application that will be renewed by the state board (even though multiple goals in its charter for achievement, enrollment and financials were not met). If the amendment is defeated, your school may have to shop for a new management company, but it's existence is not dependent on the amendment like they (CSUSA) want you to think. They scare you with talk of a "possible lawsuit," but who is going to file this elusive lawsuit and when?

Hi Kara, nice explanation. But which way is best for our children?

Continued...

When comparing funding between charter schools and traditional public schools, blanket statements that charters operate with less funding isn't completely accurate. For instance:

- Charters don't provide free transportation to all students.
- Charters typically have higher-income student populations and higher-income students are typically cheaper to educate.
- Charters don't have to accept all students such as students who have severe academic or physical disabilities which require extra dollars to educate.
- Many charters require parents to either pay or volunteer which either provides additional funds or free labor which public schools pay for.

I could keep going, but in summary, the devil is in the details and must be analyzed before stating that charters operate more efficiently than TPS.

"Each child is given a per pupil amount by both local and state taxes." - This is a complete falsehood. The student isn't given an amount from either local or state. Instead, the local and state have determine the average cost of educating the entire student population and allocated the average amount on a per student basis. If charters (and they can) manage their student populations so that they have easier to educate students, then the charters can either 1) Make or money or 2) Operate on a smaller budget.

Continued...

Your argument that if the money follows the child to the charter and thus the TPS doesn't really lose anything is also flawed. It's flawed in that, if the student chooses to leave the charter school or is kicked out, the TPS is required to have a readily open space for the student. Further, when a charter reaches capacity, it simply soes, sorry we can't take another student. TPS' may have to hire an additional teacher and rent another trailer for 1 additional student.

Local Taxes - the local district doesn't get to keep the extra $4000 per charter student. The local district estimates how many students will attend the public school and how much that will cost. It then determines the millage rate and collects the tax money. For every student that opts for home-school, charter school, private or church, the county doesn't budget for the child and doesn't receive local tax money for that child. It's basic financial management!

Listenting - it does state that they must follow federal law for HIGHLY QUALIFIED status - which if you follow this link states that they must hold a bachelors degree and many other qualifications.
http://www.gapsc.com/educatorpreparation/nochildleftbehind/CharterSchoolGuidance.pdf

Kara, that link is a draft and has requirements for charters with and without certified teachers. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I still cannot find anything official that says charter school teachers have to be certified.

Kara, "For a charter to even be approved the application must be in perfect order."
That is why CCA was denied by CCSD...it was NOT in perfect order. CCSD even told you what to do to make it better and CCA didn't do that until after it was denied. Then CCA fixed it and presented it to the state.

Kara...You're trying to sell annual teacher contracts as a benefit, but annual contracts can also be a detriment. How so? People like to have consistency in their lives like knowing that they'll have a job next week, next month, and next year. With annual contracts, highly-qualified teachers have no guarantee and could be let go for ANY REASON, budgetary, teaching, personality, etc. As such, highly-qualified teachers may by-pass a charter school for a little security.

For a charter to get approved the application must be in order...Well I would certainly hope so. That is why some of the charters were denied local board approval. With the proposed charter commission, will the same degree of application be required? There's no guarantee that it will.

You refer to the "community must show a desire" for a charter school, however, nowhere is it state what a "community" is or what level of support the "community" must have. For instance, one person (Danny Dukes) could argue that he, as the community, believes that a new charter is needed.

Your arguments are flawed and tell only your side, your opinion.

Kara, most charter applications, at least those from the same company, are word-for-word the exact same application in multiple locations. I don't want my children's education to be manufactured by a corporation as we all know the one-size fits all approach does not always fit.

I'm voting NO on Amendment 1.

Kara, I'm fine with more choices, but why do we need to spend over a million dollars per school on management fees?

As I've noted on numerous occasions with "Hyundai" Frank Jones, resorting to personal insults is the first sign of a lost debate. You lose, Jessie! Take your lowered expectations and embrace your love of mediocrity in your local TPS while the rest of these people continue fighting for the absolute best for their children.

Don't waste your time trying to explain, Kara. Frank doesn't understand how any parent can want anything but mediocrity - a "Hyundai" education (in his own words) - for their child and thinks folks should be satisfied with it. People who aren't terrifically bright to begin with can't possibly understand the boredom your gifted children were facing. Those types are happy with the Lowest Common Denominator approach that Bush's stupid No Child Left Behind forces teachers to adhere to. Which is fine for the average kids but meanwhile our best & brightest are being dumbed-down by the TPS model. Where's the outrage by these mostly-liberal people at having to adhere to NCLB? Where are the protests to change this? All you here are crickets chirping. Which reveals the fallacy of their entire argument against charters. They've no idea nor interest in actually bettering education - their only concern is for More Funding for admins and teachers. Education be damned - enjoy your Hyundai.

Steely...Bluh, bluh, bluh. I and many other "liberal" commentators on this site do not support NCLB (which was a GWB creation) and have been vocal about it. As to Lower Common Denominator education approach...as mention is GWB's approach, not mine. As I've stated many times, students should be educated based upon their academic level, not grade level. As to my kids, they're top of the charts on their academic abilities and can go toe-to-toe with the top children across the country and yet, we've found a way to achieve their academic needs working within the system.

Jennifer - While I agree that there is a difference between working for a salary and profit I think in this situation there are similarities. The management company is paid a fee for performing many services. It is no different then the salary that Dr. P and the central office are paid. Dr. P is paid 3 figures to over see the operations of the school district. He is making more then a salary, he is getting rich. Aside from 3 figures he also has 100% of his insurance covered, get a weekly car allowance of $600 along with per diems for any thing needed. So do many of the central office staff. So to say these people are working from the good of their heart and the enrichment of the kids, but that the management company is not because they to get paid is not an entirely fair statement. Also the school district paid millions for consultants to tell them how to prep graduations, to look into lunch vendors and many other companies that make profits. There are many instances where the district schools are throwing money away needlessly, why aren't those things being looked at? Charter Schools seem to be a scape goat for district schools. The fact is that money is being used irresponsibly by many districts when simple changes in financial spending could solve many of these problems.

Dr.P and administrators do not set their own salaries. Superintendents negotiate a contract with their school board in every district in Georgia. The management company determines its own fee; they develop the budget, including the fee, and give it to the "governing board," which has yet to cast a single vote in opposition to anything the management company has handed it in the four years of its existence. Including a massive increase in its fee this year, over and beyond what was actually budgeted in the petition five years out. As parents and taxpayers, are you not interested in why? The fee being paid to CSUSA is even higher this year than it was projected to be in 2015, and the school is still not at full enrollment of 1145. The test score achievement levels in the charter agreement with the state (posted online on the state website) were not met. Enrollment goals were not met. Financial goals were not met. Would it not have been better "for the kids" to hire a school nurse instead of give more money than what was budgeted to the management company? Hiring a vendor (through a transparent bidding process) to provide a specific service or product is not the same as handing all the decision-making for your school over to an entitty with other priorities.

No more Bullies - I would like to address your comment regarding management company fees and CCA. I think you are confused about this school - you state that nothing has been opposed by the board regarding the management company in the last 4 years of its existence. CCA has not been open 4 years. In fact this is only the 2nd year it has been open. The school did not meet its expected enrollment because we were unsure if we would open, which we did, 2 weeks later then the county. As a result the original 2500 students on the wait list started school at their district school and some chose to remain for that year once CCA did finally open. Had the school been approved by the local board, as it should have been, enrollment would not have been an issue. The decision making for our school is voted on by the LGC (local governing councel) and then the management company oversees implimenting those decisions. I would also like to have an answer as to why so much money is spent by the district on things like consultants for graduation procedures, lunches, dress codes, school events, etc. Is it necessary to pay a company millions to tell you that apples are better then candy? Or to tell you that one hour is not enough time for a graduation? Also, transparent is a matter of opinion apparently. I have asked for a breakdown of where the transportation money was specifically spent for example. I can not get it unless I pay thousands for copying cost to them.

Kara, I am not confused, you are not as informed as you have been led to believe. The Georgia Charter Educational Foundation, the governing board that "appoints" your local council, was founded in 2008. Actually, they were incorporated in Florida first in 2008, then reincorporated in Georgia in 2009 in order to meet the legal requirements to hold a charter. Their first meeting was June 2, 2008. Why were they incorporated in Florida first? Not sure why five Georgia residents who were interested in charter schools went to Florida to form.... maybe because 20 Charter Schools USA staff members were at their first meeting, before they were even hired? See page 3 for discussion of "growth strategies" on entering the Georgia market. There are still vacancies at your school (mostly middle grades) and most people do not believe there was ever a list of 2,500 students-- mainly because no more than 200 parents ever came to a public meeting in support of the school when the school board was considering the petition last summer. Minutes from the first GCEF meeting can be found here-- http://www.cherokee.k12.ga.us/Lists/News%20%20Announcements/Attachments/113/G-%20GCEF%20minutes.pdf

I am a single Mom who works those hours. I don't want to hear that excuse about parents that "can't" get involved. If they aren't involved, then they don't want to be. And you can legislate parenting. It's called DFCS. A parent that doesn't care enough to involve his/her self into their child(ren)'s schooling probably shouldn't be a custodial parent.

Rae, you are obviously more well off than most people and have absolutely no understanding of what it's like to have to work two jobs just to float month to month. How many parents would end up in jail or lose their children under your legislation?

Actually Jennifer your statement of booting kids out whose parents work 40-50 hours weekly is incorrect. There are many ways parents can volunteer outside of the normal school hours to be involved. For instance, a teacher needs 100 printed flowers cut out, this can be sent home with the child for the parent to work on at night. They get volunteer hours for helping with PTC (charter version of PTA) events on weekends, in evenings, etc. They can send emails out for the teachers to class room parents. Charter schools make volunteering available to fit all schedules. Also, they are aware that some parents can not volunteer for other reasons, so those parents who have above their needed hours can donate them to help other families. I help at my children's Charter school by volunteering to help with car pool at 7:15 am. Aside from that I also create the volunteer schedules for car pool, cafeteria volunteers and copying volunteers. Those who want to help with those areas email me and I create a weekly schedule, in the evening, from my lap top, while sitting on my bed, watching American Idol.

Jennifer: " Also, keep in mind that you can't legislate parenting. The child is required to attend school."

Requiring the child to attend school IS LEGISLATING PARENTING. Which is fine - kids need to be in school. Also, crappy or dangerous parenting will result in DFACS removing the child...also an example of "legislating parenting".

I hope you don't teach Logic & Deductive Reasoning.

David, In fact, the State Education Finance Commission, established in the 2011 legislative session, just spent 15 months looking at education funding. They have made some recommendations for the General Assembly to consider in the 2013 session. You need to do a little background research, though, because your basic understanding of K12 funding in GA is flawed, in line with your logic, sadly. Atlanta Public Schools may spend nearly twice as much per student as Cherokee, but they do NOT get that money from the state. Like Cherokee, Fulton, and DeKalb, APS does NOT get equalization grants. Cherokee does not "donate," it just doesn't receive the EG that Gwinnett does from the state. (And give it up on the SATs, puh-lease. Continuing to cite that shows that you are uninformed and parroting what suits your stance; consider trying some critical thought, okay?)

That is where you are misinformed. Charter school students will get 62% of the funds other students get. They get 2 1/2 times the state funds, but NO local property tax dollars. That means NONE of my tax dollars go to my school.

Rae, Are you talking about virtual schools or "brick-and-mortar" schools where teachers actually supervise AND instruct students? For brick-and-mortar schools, the state (per this amendment) would subsidize the schools at 82% of what local schools get per FTE. (Which means more of MY state income tax would go to educate YOUR child in a state charter (in another district) as MY property taxes would rise to maintain ed services because the state lowered my school district's funding to pay for your charter school. How does THAT seem equitable?)

I DO NOT want to put control over the educational choices of my future grandchildren in the hands of local school boards like APS, Bibb County, Clayton County, DeKalb County, etc.

A foundation of conservatism is also 'The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people', aka the 10th Amendment. 1162 adheres to conservative principles better than "Your educational choices shall be dictated to you by local, overpaid, crony-filled boards of education, many of which are corrupt."

Steely, 1162 (Amendment 1) creates another layer of government (this is conservative how?), that will attempt to solve a 'problem' (for those of you that hate all-things traditional public school related) that the government itself has created (red tape for districts and teachers, coupled with under-funding these incessant mandates). And who is leading the pack? The Mighty Chip Rogers - who wouldn't dare send his own children to public school - along with Reps like Alisha Morgan who stands to make oodles of dollars if this amendment passes - after all, her husband is a LOBBYIST for a group that promotes school choice! I'm oh-so glad that these people are 'looking out for my kids.' Funny joke!

Danny, you'd rather have them in the hands of a seven member appointed board with no accountability? Boy, THAT makes sense.

Depending on how much a person makes and where they live, it's most-definitely "their money".
Jennifer, where do you think federal and state money come from? (I know, I know - besides Bernanke's magic printing presses!!)? Any money that comes from any sort of taxation is OUR MONEY.

Steely...Federal, state and local tax revenues do originate from individuals and businesses; however, rarely does one person's tax obligation pay for his or her child's/children's education simply because their tax obligation does isn't enough to fund their education expense. Instead, public education is a re-distribution of money from those without school-age children to those that have school-age children. It's a government subsidy, something that many on the "right" are against.

Please use common sense in your rebuttals. You show you lack of knowledge when you do otherwise.

Danny, there are very, very few people that pay enough into the tax base that they would completely cover the cost of their child's education. According to this kind of logic, if I install an alarm and sprinkler system in my house, I should be able to take back "my" tax money that goes to fire and police protection. Your posts here and in other forums show that you are so full of venom towards our public schools that reasonable discussion isn't possible.

Jennifer, What were the issues in the application with special ed? Some folks on here are claiming that the charters HAVE to (and do) take children with any disability and serve them. The SpEd kids in charters seemed to boomerang back to the district TPS from what I've seen and heard, as the charters didn't "meet their needs."

If they HAVE to take anyone, I'd suggest another way to skin a cat. Have every parent of a very high-needs child apply to the for-profit charters, sue if they don't provide appropriate services, and drive the for-profits out of town. This would preserve the grass-roots charters who honestly promote innovation and depend on collaboration for success...

I just suspect that the SpEd students with significant needs are "counseled out.." of most charters...

CSUSA didn't address how they would handle their special ed students. Their application only planned for 2 special ed teachers, which didn't seem adequate for an enrollment of 1000 students. The application proposed contracting many of the services back to the school district, yet that process was very unclear. The minutes for the CCSD board meeting on June 16, 2011 have these documents, all are under section B. Hope this helps.

Can you refute any of them? Have I personally insulted anyone?

Which replies don't you care for? The ones about our state's 67% graduation rate? The ones about our bottom-40s ranking? The ones that point out the disasters in places like APS, Dekalb, Bibb, and Clayton?

That's the problem with public education today. When people point out its failings, they're labeled as "ill-mannered". Reality doesn't care about self-esteem or hurt-feelings. Nor do future employers. Nor do the 33% of GA HS kids not getting their HS diploma.

Steely...Many of us have refuted virtually all of your arguments and pointed out the errors of your "facts". You obviously don't want to learn anything new and instead will name call and put down others...especially me. I'm OK with your snide remarks, but others...how about some civility?

One More Time...Our "bottom-40s ranking" is strictly a result of the number of students taking the SAT. It's not an indication of how good or bad our schools are! Our 67% graduation rate isn't impressive, but doesn't account for the students graduating in more than 4 years. It also is influenced by southern/rural culture where education hasn't historically been deemed as important as it should have been. It's also influenced by other socio-economic issues unrelated to how good or bad our schools are.

Think you can learn the above? Or it challenging your long held flawed beliefs?

Frank, you've never refuted a single thing I've typed. Instead, you use a bunch of nonsense to try and obfuscate the facts. Fact is...we got to the bottom of the rankings after DOUBLING per-child spending. Fact is...Cherokee County SAT scores just hit record highs in spite of SPENDING CUTS! More refutation of your insistence that 'more spending' is the solution to every problem.

Why is it that pointing out our dismal state HS grad rate is "uncivil"? Why is it that pointing out the repeated failures of increased-spending is "uncivil"? Why is pointing out the corruption of APS, DeKalb, Clayton, and Bibb "uncivil"?

That's the problem with your side of this debate, Frank - you're more concerned with 'hurt feelings' than in discussing the facts. Fact is, employers of today and tomorrow do not care about one's hurt feelings. They only care about having qualified people to do the work that's out there. Right now, our TPS is failing to provide that for at least 33% of the HS kids who aren't graduating and an untold number of students who are but who still need remedial assistance. Why is it "uncivil" to point this out?

It's telling that your numerous personal insults to me are OK and not considered 'uncivil'. Hypocrisy, thy name is Frank Jones. Your long-held beliefs don't need to be challenged. History has already judged them to be failures.

Danny, when HAVEN'T you been insulting toward someone who doesn't agree with you? That's the question that would be easier to answer. And.... one more time... a 67% graduation rate DOES NOT MEAN a 33% dropout rate. It means that 67% graduate in 4 years and 3 summers. Some students require an extra summer, an extra year. They graduate, but later! So, please, for the love of pete, stop equating the inverse of the graduation rate as a dropout rate. It's just not so and your continued insistence will not make it thus. This has been explained to you many times, online and publicly, and it's time for it to sink in. And, as to your snide remark hoping that I don't teach logic and deductive reasoning -- I sure do, and I am excellent at what I do. I also teach reading and listening comprehension. My classroom is crowded, but there's always room for one more.

Oh Dan... the 67% graduation rate doesn't mean that 33% are not getting their diploma. That's only if you are silly enough to take the inverse, which would make sense if you didn't know that the 67% only includes students that graduate in 4 years. Many of those 33% graduate the following year or take part in another type of program to gain their diploma. Yes, some do drop out, but there are many that are counted as a drop out when they transfer schools and the transfer school does not report back the enrollment of those students, which happens more often than one would think. Janet Read did an excellent job of explaining this in her debate for School Board Chairman. Here's the link - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3WIclLDABI&feature=relmfu

But students who require more time to graduate == students who are COSTING MORE TO EDUCATE. Surely I don't have to point out that a child who requires an 'extra summer or extra year' costs more to the already-broke taxpayer? All due to a failure of the TPS model to provide them with the basic remedial skills needed to graduate in the first place.

1 of 3 HS kids aren't graduating on time with the rest of their peers, no matter how you libs try to obfuscate that fact. Someone somewhere along the lines of the TPS system is FAILING to do their job in educating 1 of 3 kids. 33% of kids being left behind isn't a statistic I'd be happy to hang my hat on....but then, I'm not in GA public education, where mediocrity is the standard. Most private sector workers lose their jobs with a 67% success rate. You TPS supporters accept it as 'normal'.

With that sort of C- attitude, no wonder we're getting our educational butts handed to us by the rest of the world. I guarantee you Asian HS students don't adhere to such below-average levels of achievement.

And Jennifer, your complete silence of the internet bullying of Frank Jones, who always resorts to personal insults, is quite telling.

YES on 1162 allows parents to bypass this C- mentality.

OK, Danny, let me give you a few real-life examples of students who need more time to graduate and the reasons have ZERO to do with the school's end. Children with severe medical issues, such as cancer. What about the child who has to battle for their life, putting their education on hold? They need more time. What about the child whose family life is so dysfunctional that DFACS needs to step in and remove the child from the home? Children aren't going to be focused on their education when they are wondering if they will be in their fifth foster placement tonight (older children are harder to place.) What about the child who ISN'T removed from the home, but has a parent who is non-functioning, terminally ill, unemployed? School isn't necessarily first priority for kids who are concerned about what's going on at home. What about learning disabled students who need more time? Our public schools work very hard to help these children to keep them in school and give them the support they need, and more time to graduate is a blessing that they desperately need without judgment from bitter people. But let's keep this on issue: Do we need this amendment to open charter schools? No. Since the Georgia Supreme Court declared the commission illegal, 16 charters have applied to the state, and all were approved. It shows the amendment isn't needed. We don't need another layer of government.

Jennifer, school districts legislate parenting too. Ask any parent of a child who is borderline ADD what the district requires about ADD medication. The district will flat-out boot the kid out of school unless the parents medicate and will threaten to report them to DFACS unless they medicate.

That's Parental Legislation 101.

Danny, that is just plain flat-out wrong -- you're making that up. I teach many children who have a diagnosis of ADHD. Some of them, their parents choose to medicate. Some don't, and choose other options to handle the issue. I work with the children and their families in both instances. I don't have to ask the parents. I know these parents and work with them already. This is just getting ridiculous. Can we keep this on the issue at hand please? We do not need the state to create a parallel system when there are already two means by which to create a charter school. I'll be voting NO in NOvember.

David - Here is a site that shows more factual evidence about those SAT scores that cause our state to be ranked so low. http://www.commonwealthfoundation.org/policyblog/detail/sat-scores-by-state-2011
Please not that 80% of the student population took the SAT in GA. Compare that to those ranking higher than GA. Most of the top 20 had fewer than 10% of their student population take the SAT. If you compare the top 10% of students in any state, they should rank much higher than 80% of any other state. Now, what you really need to do is compare the top 5% for each state, or have every state require all students take the SAT to be able to have a fair comparison. If you compare the top 5% of the worst school system in the state, you'll likely see them perform better than the top 80% of any other school system.

Also, I've seen people talk about this previously on here, so it is a bit redundant, but not all students can be educated at the same costs. Special Ed and ESOL/ESL students cost much much more than an Honor's or regular ed student, especially those with a lot of parental involvement.

Rae,

Georiga is one of the 5 states that made teacher unions illegal. There are no teacher unions in GA......

Rae, please again, pardon my ignorance, but I am missing where it says their revenue is fueled by tax dollars. Also, your websites continue to call them unions, which they are not.

Rae...look at the names of the organizations you referred to: Georgia ASSOCIATION of Educators, National Education ASSOCIATION, Georgia FEDERATION of Teachers, and American FEDERATION of Teachers. The names don't include the word "Union" and are professional associations much like:

American Medical Association
American Dental Association
American Bar Association
American Institute of Certified Public Accounts
American Forensic Association

These are all organizations that support members of their professions by setting standards, doing research, and advocating at the federal and state level for their members and customers. They're not unions.

As many have pointed out, Georgia has banned teacher unions.

Rae...True, public schools are funded by tax dollars. What's your point? Do you think that public schools should be abolished? Do you think that each person should pay 100% for his/her child/ren to attend school? Do you not see value in ensuring that every child has the opportunity for an education? Do you think our country will succeed with no government involvement in education?

Take a look around the world at the countries that have the best school systems. The have public schools. Few if any have charter schools. Many pay teachers more that what we pay teachers.

Let's draw a parallel here. Let's say Sally loses her job and gets an EBT card with $400 a month to feed her family of 3. She could go to Publix and spend it in one trip. She might go to Sam's club, buy in bulk and trade excess with another friend. Or she might study weekly flyers and visit several stores to maximize her money. She might buy generic food, or she might buy gourmet cuts of meat. Whatever she does with her $400, it is her decision and she has to live with the consequences. She has CHOICE. Why should we have less choice than EBT users when it comes to educating our children?

Rae, again... amendment 1 is NOT about, "should there be choice?" There IS choice! There's been choice for a very long time, and more choices have mushroomed in the past 20 years with charters and technology. Amendment 1 is about who will run part of that choice. I'm not against charters. I AM against a state agency, non-elected, that will harm the public schools in the process of running that choice. THAT is the issue. THAT is what amendment 1 is about.

Now, I'll go with your analogy for a moment. Sally does have to live with her consequences within the boundaries given her. But, there are boundaries. The EBT card will not pay for beer, cigarettes, nail polish, dog food, etc. She does not have ANY choice open to her. However, this is getting away from the issues that amendment 1 deals with.

Rae, the only parallel I'm seeing is that this is a handout... welfare for people that want the private school feeling without having to foot the bill.

Why not say that you want a choice in how your child is transported to school since the taxpayers are paying for it anyways?
/// I don't feel safe with my child riding the bus, but I don't want to have to pay with my own money to drive him/her to school. I want a choice, and the state should send a limo driver to pick up the child.\\\

See how ridiculous that sounds? But at least it would give us another choice (that we don't have to pay for).

thank goodness that's the case. As the good people of Wisconsin & Chicago learned, public-sector unions are worthless and nothing but a drain on an already-broke taxpayer. The last thing GA needs is a Chicago-styled union and subsequent strike.

Steely, since you obviously agree that GA has no unions (and you're right - it doesn't), can you please relay that message to Rae? And every other 'uninformed' citizen that posts nonsense about teacher unions in GA? Much appreciated!